“Moving from one country to another is no longer a doomsday decision,” says Ioanna Laliotou, history and social anthropology professor in the Thessaly University in Volos and author of the book “Transatlantic Subjects: Acts of Migration and Cultures of Transnationalism between Greece and America” gave an interview for Maria Spassova.

Can we speak of mass scale return of Greek Americans back to Greece?

This is a very interesting question, which science has not yet researched in a way it deserves and studying this topic is imminent. Ever since the beginning of the 20^th century it is a fact that the emigrant wave is very active back towards the home country. Unfortunately this movement back to Greece has not been recorded neither in American nor in Greek archives. Besides that, many people come back in order to leave again for America in few years. Independently of whether they have planned it or not. Emigration is such a psychological act, which each emigrant plans it to a certain extent. Maybe during the 20’s one decides to come back to Greece but 5 years later he changes his mind and leaves again for the US. In all cases this movement back to the home country exists. Greeks do come back, some of them stay and others leave again. It is interesting that one of the first studies done about Greeks in America is about the ones who return. The study is done by a famous historian Theodoros Salutos. He was an emigrant himself, who during the 50’s becomes one of the first Fulbright scholarship winners. He returned back to Greece and made a series of interviews with emigrants from America who have returned back to Greece. After that he publishes his results in one very interesting book. He asked them why and when they have come back and for the reason. It came out that many of them return, in order to fix some property, administrative or legal cases. Others, return for family reasons – to get married, to marry their sisters, to take their brother away with them. Some of the ones who have returned decide to stay and others leave. Obviously emigration is a big bargain with oneself. What Salutos explains is the problem of the double identity, for which all surveyed talk about. At a point in the conversation, all of them say that they have felt like foreigners in America and this is why they have returned back to Greece. When they return, they are no longer the same as everybody else – they are different. As one of the surveyed says: “In America we are Greeks and in Greece we are Americans.”

When it comes to the second emigration wave, after the Second World War, we can also see many people coming back. The interesting thing in this “coming back” phenomenon is that it includes all emigrant layers – those who can settle down fast and make a career, and the ones who have failed. In other words, a person comes back because he did not succeed but also because he did succeed and is sure in himself that he can finance his life here in Greece. Many people return after their retirement. There is one phenomenon, which can be seen in the last 10 years – people around 50-55, spend 6 months in Greece and the rest in America. Usually, those are people in good financial standing and with a big family. It is hard for all of them to return to Greece and this is how they combine their lives there and here. During the last 15 years, we can notice another group of people, who comes back to Greece after they graduate from university. Years back, whoever graduated in the US, they usually found a job there and stayed. Now, at least for a significant period of time, a big part of that group returns to Greece.

How do you see this phenomenon developing in the future?

Usually, we historians talk about the past but of course we always think about the future as well. The circumstances under which people develop today are very different compared to the ones when the returning phenomenon occurred in the 20^th century. We live in an age where communication is globalized. People travel a lot. Moving from one country to the other is no longer a doomsday decision, like it was in the past. People are more flexible, moving from one place to another is not for ever but for a certain period of time. From this point of view I’m not sure if we will see many people returning to Greece. Actually, I don’t believe we will. It is certain that now we can see people moving a lot and this process will deepen. Movement is in both directions. Many Greeks come back to Greece for a limited period of time but also, many Greeks leave. This is very obvious in the academic sector. What do I mean – American scientists make researches in Greece and many Greek professors in Greek universities leave to teach in American schools. I think this movement and flexibility will develop more and more. Let us not even mention that we live in an age where one can be living in Greece but working in the US.

If we go back in time, when did Greek emigration towards the US start and how many emigration waves can we track throughout the history?

Greek emigration towards the US started towards the end of the 19^th century. Some of first registered emigrants are from the 80’s of the 19^th century. This doesn’t mean that there were no emigrants before that but it was rare. We can speak of mass emigration in the 1890 and the peak of Greek emigrants in the US is at the beginning of the 20^th century. This is also the first Greek emigrant wave towards the US. Of course, when we speak of waves it is conditionally because the movement never stops. Simply, during some historic points we have an increase of the number of Greeks, who leave for America. The same way we have an increase of emigration during the first 2 decades of the 20^th century, there is also a more frequent emigration after the end of the Second World War and more specifically in the 50’s and 60’s of the 20^th century. Those are actually the two big emigration waves – the first 20 years of the 20^th century and after that in the 50’s and 60’s. The main factor, which divides emigration into those two waves, is the US legislature. In 1924 the US emigration laws change and the quotas are introduced, according to which each country has a right for a certain number of emigrants in the US.

The result from this change is that Greek emigration towards the US stops. So after 1924, we can see a decrease in emigration. After the end of the Second World War and mainly during the 50’s, the US legislature changes again. This time a law is enforced about people who have settled down outside the US due to the war. This way, another opportunity comes along and many young Greeks leave for America. Of course, this is a period in which Greeks leave also for Australia, Germany but emigration to the US is the most massive one. In other words, Greek emigration towards the US does not stop during the 20^th century but in the mentioned to periods, the number if people increased. Those two waves form two different generations of Greek emigrants and two different groups of Greek Americans. Very often they confront each other – the newer emigrants with the older ones.

What was the life of Greek emigrants in America? What did they do? What education did they have?

The history of Greeks in the US is very rich, because there many different people and situations. Every time we try to generalize the picture, we always left some groups of people out and vice versa, we stress more on some others. This is how stereotypes are born. When we speak of the first wave, we can certainly say that they were young men. In today’s standards we can say that they were boys under 20 years of age, many times they were underage, which was illegal but it had happened. In most cases they were illiterate – either they never went to school or if they did, it was for a little bit. Most of them come from farmer families in Peloponnese. They were very poor but at least they had some properties. The Greek emigrant is a person, who is at the lower end of the economic pyramid but not in its bottom. He owns a field or some type of property, which he raises a mortgage on, in order to buy a ticket for America. After 1915-1920 many young women start leaving for the US because they marry emigrants, who are already there. Very often men come back to their villages, in order to find a girl to marry and then take her back to America. What do they do there? They arrive at the New York port and after that they continue North towards to Mid West, where they work in mines and railway construction. They also settle down in the cities, the industrial zones, and start working whatever they can find but predominantly in the tailoring industry. Little by little they start opening their own restaurants, some of the first Greek communities are formed and this is how some employment opportunities come for members of the community – in the community stores, restaurants and banks.

Among the children of the first emigration wave, we can see a jump in education. They were born in America, studied there, graduated from universities and very soon they improved their social status. The second generation of the wave soon becomes doctors, lawyers, and teachers – all professions, which need very good education. The second emigrant wave of the 50’s and 60’s also mainly comes from farming families. Back then in Greece, there are two types of emigration – internal, which goes out to the big cities or more specifically, which forms the big cities and the other type is the external emigration, which heads abroad. Those are people, who have attended school, graduated and many of them had actually gone to high school. During that period, another type of emigration comes along – the educational. Those are people, who leave for the US, in order to study. Their number is constantly increasing throughout the years. They are over 18 years old and by leaving for America they form the groups of Greek scientists in the US universities. Some of them settle down there and other return back to Greece.

What is the role of the church in the Greek community’s life in America?

Actually the Greek communities form around the Orthodox religion and the church. Of course, we have communities of Greek Jews in the US but most of them are Christian Orthodox. The church plays a big role in their lives. The social life of emigrants is based around the activities of the church and the celebration of common holidays – they get together and create friendships.

Geographically speaking, where are the biggest Greek communities in America?

Mostly on the East coast – New York, Chicago but also in big cities like Pittsburgh, Detroit, Los Angeles and San Francisco. Of course, there are Greek communities also in Washington and Canada.

Can we name a number of how many Greeks live in the US?

It is hard to speak in numbers, because we do not have enough official data about them. According to some researchers, 250 thousand people have emigrated to the US during the first half of the 20^th century and according to other they were 250 thousand. Greece did not keep record of how many people had left. We received this information from the US archives, which are very valuable but even they have some gaps. What gaps? When the emigrant arrived in the US, his nationality was recorded based on his place of birth. The immigration authorities asked him where he is from and he answered – Peloponnese, in Greece. Some others though, have been from regions, which were part of the Ottoman Empire and are recorded as its citizens. The second problem of answering this question is what exactly does it mean to be an emigrant in the US – does it include the second generation Greeks, does it include the third…